And because hierarchies also give certainty so that kind of paradigm of giving workers comfort and where they sit in the business if they know exactly where they sit, then they know I don't have to do this, but I do have to do this, and I don't have to do that. Yeah. But as soon as it's used as a weapon, I guess, which maybe in days gone by that feels like what it might have been used as a bit of a you're not allowed to do this because that's where you sit in the hierarchy, rather than I'm protecting you from these things because this is your job.

Kia Ora. I'm Simon Gyenge and welcome to Simon Says. This month I sat down with Nicky Benson, coach and facilitator and my co-director here at LOA Law, Denise Arnold, to talk about professional and personal adaptability and whether leadership models are geared for the next generation of leader. Denise, amongst many achievements, has a successful legal career as well as being a founder of the Cambodia Charitable Trust, which is a charity dedicated to delivering education to young boys and girls in Cambodia. Nicky Benson has 23 years experience in business and coaching and facilitating and her focus is on developing leaders to deliver for themselves and for their teams. Challenging conversations that getting harder and harder to have some might even say it's dangerous to publicly have such conversations, but that's why they’re so important, because the leaders of tomorrow are facing challenges that we haven't experienced before, and they need to be prepared to engage in those hard conversations when it really matters. If you listen to today's talk and you're challenged or disagree with something that's good, take it, marinate on it. And if you feel strongly enough, share your comment of your side of the coin. If you listen to everything and you find yourself agreeing the whole way through, take it as a sign that you haven't met the boundaries of your opinions and you need to dig a bit deeper. Either way, Simon Says I hope you enjoy the conversation and that you keep an open mind, hold your opinions close but be malleable with them and remember at LOA Law, we are good lawyers for good people. Enjoy. Today I thought it would be fun to talk about leadership and Nicky, you, you train leaders like that's your, that's your kind of day to day job like how we lawyer and you’re training leaders. Yeah. So there's kind of a number of things we can unpack in that. Yeah. But a cool place to start would be there's lots of technology changing, what's the thing that is the biggest challenge for the current leaders in their kind of 40s to 60s? Okay. What what's what's something that they're struggling with. Yeah. I mean, there's some themes and and I'm not saying it's just at the 40 to 60 year old age range, but I think there's there's so much unpredictability at the moment. There's so much change going on in organisations from a digital perspective, from a, a way of working, you know, whether it's full agile or whether it's just trying to flatten some of that hierarchy. And then there's so much unpredictability. If you think about what's going on in Wellington and on top of that, there's this rapid, I guess, evolution of AI and systems upgrades and greater regulation. So I think some of the themes that I'm seeing is people are really having to recognise that they're needing to adapt their style, and probably for the more established traditional leaders, what I'm noticing, you know, from more the one on one coaching is if my identity is wrapped around knowing exactly what I'm doing and being certain and to some extent, being an expert, then I'm feeling quite challenged when I'm having to keep pace. And also this sense that younger people perhaps are ahead of the game in some of the ways we're having to work. So, you know, I think it's a really interesting time for leaders. As in like young people, they have the skills to be able to use some of the tools or some of the things that are needed in business? I think they're probably coming in with with less belief around their own style, because they haven't yet found that yet. So perhaps a more openness to trying new things although even that's interesting, because I was talking to to one particular leader of a group of leaders who had the assumption that new people coming into the workplace would be really adept at using computers, when in fact they weren't, because they're doing everything on their smartphones. So, you know, we're having to challenge our own assumptions. Yeah, yeah, I wonder if touch typing, for example, like whether young people coming through would be very good at touch typing because they'd just be doing everything with the thumbs rather than necessarily the keypad. Yeah, yeah and then of course, you know, our, our assumptions, if we're seeing somebody on their phone rather than sitting at a computer and, you know, there's a lot more, I think, having to lean into getting to know each other better, understanding each other, being more curious. you know, I think a lot of leaders are reaching out and recognising they're having to shift some of their beliefs and mindsets around what leadership actually is. Is that a burden on leaders do you think that they're feeling like they have to care that the empathy category is way higher than than it used to be? I think for some, yes. I think for those who naturally have led in that way, then it's like, well, hallelujah, surely we've known this forever. But, you know, if I think of more traditional, more hierarchical organisations, I think I think what this is just from what I'm noticing, you know, women potentially have always been more in that way of working than perhaps their male counterparts. And, you know, I think there's some validation now that that's what's needed. But I think there's also some challenges for some leaders to be able to, I guess, be more inclusive and, you know, to challenge some of the ways that they're leading. Because if you're leading through unpredictability, you know, a lot of research would suggest we need to you know, be be much more inclusive. We need to be be much more curious. We need to lean into ambiguity and not not be too controlling and of course, when any of us feel under pressure or that we're sort of overwhelmed by what's expected, the default can often be to try and control, which is actually the opposite of what we need to do. So yeah. And I think it's an interesting time. But you must have you've had this for many years where like, there's never been a time when I've worked for you and then with you, Denise that you’ve not cared about the people you work with and that hasn't been a driving factor. No. That's right and I think I, yeah, I think though that it is changing because some of the patterns of behavior that you would have had as a leader, probably not appropriate anymore because I think, you know, that leadership used to be kind of leading from the front and by definition, and being decisive and setting the pace and all those kind of things, that doesn't necessarily work so well anymore. It needs to be more collaborative and I, I think maybe sometimes that's a bit threatening to the, the older style of leadership, you know, and there’s yeah I think that's a challenge for leaders. I think it is this blend isn't it. It's noticing where your strengths are but also how do I get more comfortable in being more empathetic. And what does that even mean actually. You know because you know some would say well where does that sit in leadership if, if, if by default their leaders have been much more hierarchical and that's what they've experienced? I think it's, you know, it's a big ask for people to quickly change their behavior. So, you know, I think the more we can normalise and help people recognise it's not about changing who you are, it's just how do you become more flexible, and more self-aware. Yeah, I just think there's a lot of moving parts and I think on top of that, you've got, yeah, hybrid working. We've got some leaders who've never met their team face to face, you know, who are spread geographically, certainly in some organisations and then, you know, without that face to face time, how do you truly, I guess, really get to know each other and build that trust so that you can have the conversations that need to happen? So, you know, I think there's some recalibration going on and, you know, for a lot of organisations just finding that rhythm as to what works best, but of course, some people have made decisions where they're now not living within a commutable distance to the workplace because during Covid, you know, that kind of happened. They could. Yeah and, you know, now if your organisation is going through a restructure, then where am I going to work? You know, this agreement that was made during this period of time, you know, you know, I think this uncertainty is certainly, throwing up quite a lot of anxiety and, yeah, leaders are having to, I think, evolv. Is the, is the hybrid model working do you think? I think it can you know, I think I think it can I think I think there just needs to be a lot more discussion and experimentation. And you know, one of the things I am noticing is, you know, the organisations where they've got 2 or 3 anchor days where everybody's in then the challenge can also be, is there enough space for us to sit together, you know, because, you know, through Covid and even prior, some organisations were taking away some of that cost of having as much, you know, space. and there of course, if you're coming into the workplace with the view that you can collaborate, connect, be more creative together, but you can't actually be together and you're just sitting working on your own, then you're getting this real resistance. So, you know, a lot of the conversations I'm having with teams and leaders is, is how do you look at the whole system and, you know, as an organisation, be coordinated enough that if your team's coming in, you can sit together and be purposeful about why you are together? Because if I'm traveling an hour and a half just to sit at my desk and do my own work, why am I here? I raised that with a friend of mine the other day, that concept of if I just go in and then I'm isolated in my own little silo anyway, what's the point? I can I can just be at home in my PJs, doing the work in my office. Yeah and they talk about the necessity of coming together in order to be a team. But if you're not able to do that, you know, and collaborate face to face then it does make it a little bit pointless, I guess and that's where you get the resistance. Yeah and all the hot desking, you know, moving to hot desking and just and moving around and not having your own space. And that's really important for some people and that sort of home ground is really important. So yeah, I think it's just I think it is quite disruptive for a lot of people and because that would be hard on the workers as well that don't feel like they've got somewhere to go to work. Yeah and it creates anxiety, you know, because where am I going to sit. Therefore I've got to get in early which means I'm leaving home earlier. Yeah, yeah and I think you've got a place and you have your style and you have your things, and then if you don't have any of that, you and just have a laptop and you're not collaborating, it's a bit of a pointless exercise, isn't it? And, you know, to be honest, a lot of the research around hot desking wasn't working pre the pandemic. So even when there was enough space, you look at some of the research around that, you know, there's increased illness because you're working in an area that other people have been and you’re often using someone else's keyboard. I hadn't even thought of that. Yeah. You've got nothing around yourself that gives you that sort of sense of, you know, lots of this used to photos of a family or, knickknacks. But, you know, you're just a nomad, really, with a locker or someone else's family. Yeah, yeah. Would be even worse wouldn’t it? I’d be terrible. I'd be like one of those people that carries around a little case, and then whatever desk I land at I’d open it out and put my bits and pieces out. Actually you would, yeah, I can see that. Yeah. It would be terrible, I’d waste half my day set up and pack down so that you felt comfortable. Yeah, but that's. Yeah, I mean, that's challenging for for people to feel safe in their job and then we're heading into a period where maybe people aren't as safe in their job as they would like to be so then worrying about looking at the door is not where you want your team to be at. No, no, that's for sure. So I certainly I think I mean, I've always worked in this sort of space of personal leadership, you know, how do we lead ourselves more effectively and, you know, one component is that is how do I stay stable and, you know, believe in myself and, and be comfortable when there’s change so that no matter what turbulence is going on around me, you know, I can still, you know, be present and flexible and focused and not get caught up in all of that turbulence. Are leaders within businesses needing to take a more active role in facilitating that within their teams. I think there is a lot of emphasis. You know, I've I've been really impressed with, you know, the organisations I work with, there's a big focus on on wellness, but I think it's also how do they role model it. Right. So, you know, if you're the leader then you do have an impact. And if people see you, you know, sending emails at, you know, 11:00 at night, no matter how much we say, look, you don't need to notice them. You know, if you're the boss, then there's going to be an impact. You could argue, well, why are people checking it? So, you know, I think I think I think there is a much bigger emphasis. But I think there's also more challenges with people working from home because you're not picking up on those cues. You're not seeing if someone's struggling. You know, where you've got people who are, you know, particularly doing Yeah, I was working with one organisation with a call center. You know, people can work from home, which is great. Gives you more flexibility. You know, you can be more available for pick up, you know, flex your day. But but equally, if you've had a really tough call, you know, where's your peer support? you know, how do you debrief that, you know, how do you manage that level of emotional. Yeah, you know, potential drain if you're not together and hearing those conversations. And as much as we love the people at home with us, they don't necessarily understand why it was a terrible call. Yeah, it might be a really nuanced reason that's really industry specific, specific to the people you're talking to that your significant other or or parents or whoever or flatmates that they just wouldn’t get. So you're not getting that immediate, just like, oh yeah, I had a call like that yesterday. They're just plonker. So yeah. Yeah. But how does also how does an organisation, ensure that we're all sharing the same values and working, you know, with the same ethics and if you're separated and, you know, I think if you're working distantly it's it's hard to as much it's hard to support someone without being able to hear those calls and understand what's going on. You also don't have any sense of the responses that your team might be giving unless you're hearing them. Or the manner in which they're conducting themselves and I think values is something that's really important in leadership and in the success of an organisation and I just wonder, I don't know, Nicky, is that something that's being harder to maintain or is there any kind of change there? I think it's been really hard for people who've joined organisations where they haven't been on site. You know, if you look at what was happening, particularly through the pandemic. But but even now, you know, I do think and the generation coming through, if you look at all the research that's coming through, they want to be doing something that has purpose, that enables them to bring their values into how they work. so, you know, when you start to think about the values of an organisation, I think there's a greater emphasis on people really looking at what is this organisation stand for, and do I want to work with them? You know, can I bring my whole self to work? Is it somewhere I feel I can belong? so I think it is important and my own personal perception is it is harder to do. when you've not got people together. I do because you know we're picking up on so many different cues when we're actually in person. Yes and the conversations are more organic. you know, we've got opportunities to have coffee and tea breaks together rather than just going into our own separate kitchens so, you know, I think, I think there's a more purposeful need to really connect and, you know, also to, to create some social time when people are in the office together, that actually this time built in where we go and have a shared morning tea or, we do something as a team to really celebrate our wins. And, you know, talk about what's important in terms of how we work together, which in effect is values what are the behaviors that, you know, are really important for us and it's not the same talking online. It's great. But it's not it's not quite the same. There's a little bit of lag often. Yeah and so then the conversation that would normally flow suddenly you're constantly having these little jutters where you're needing to adjust. Yeah and even the responses that we give to each other, you know, if we were doing this on zoom, you might not have gone yeah, yeah, yeah Out of fear that it would lag and, and then I would say and go, oh no, no, no please and, and that just and then you're back to square one in terms of building in terms of that relationship. Yeah. I did actually find that, you know, when we all suddenly had to be zooming each other, some of our team didn't realise it every time they went, oh yeah. everybody else got silenced. Yeah. Yeah and by the time you've unmuted it’s moved on hasn’t it. Yes. Oh yeah. No, we didn't have the muted in the beginning which was. Well and that was back when we were learning that the video would change to the screen of whoever was the loudest. So then if you were uming and ahhing and then suddenly you'd pop up on everyone's screen and be like, oh yeah, yeah. Must um/ahh more quietly. Yeah, yeah. But but I say that to clients the same way that we can do everything at a distance. But it's harder for me to gauge whether whether they are truly taking in what I'm saying whether there’s real understanding it's harder with a couple because there might be banging under the table or ‘don't say that or this' and you know, and I can't necessarily see that whereas they can't do that in the office with me so you miss out on a whole bunch of just the, the fact of being together and also when things are uncomfortable, they're uncomfortable it's not something that you can, necessarily put your finger on why a conversation is uncomfortable, but then suddenly it is uncomfortable but you don't I don't think you get that over a video the same way. Yeah, well, I think we pick up on each other's energy, you know, as well. That's an interesting point and we had that at a conference recently talking about the level of energy a person has to be at in order to be able to absorb information, process it and respond accordingly, so you're dealing you're making decisions from the correct space rather than fight or flight or anxious, depressed, sad and when someone comes into our office, we get a sense of that. Yeah, we can get a read and I don't think we do it consciously I think when you've been doing this a long time, someone walks in, you get a read on their energy level, and you either have to jolly them on and think about what a positive outcome could be, or you're okay and you can start delivering information. We don't get that so easily on the screen. I agree and and you know, your space you know for example, our door upstairs, the handle twists like it's a big brass handle and it twists but it also the the brass casing on the door just moves slightly, so if someone is in a rush or agitated or, then you can hear it when the door opens. So you kind of know if there's some, but you don't necessarily know what it is, but it's another data point. It's a something else that you then it adds to then the next thing and then if we go back to leadership, you know, if you're not able to pick up on that kind of somebodies energies or the anxiety or whatever at a distance it’s harder for a leader. I think there’s temptations to produce large quantities of handbooks and manuals, and we do this and we do that but you're talking about the leader who sends emails at 11 p.m., and the manual says “oh, we don't expect you to do that.” It's it's do what I say, not do what I do. Yeah and when you're in an office, you know, that's easy then to moderate someone's behavior if they're really upset about something before they respond and we have those moments, we go down the hall and we kind of say, yeah, I mentioned, you know, take your fingers off the keyboard, just go and talk to someone else. Get another perspective. Yeah, that's very handy. Yeah, yeah and it seems to be getting more and more difficult. I don't know, generally, but I personally find it more and more difficult to speak on the phone, talk in person versus just send a quick email. And that's like not having grown up with computers it's still feels a real comfort of hiding behind the keyboard. Yeah and I that's something that I worry about that the next generation coming through they're so indoctrinated into that. Yes. They’d never dream of making a phone call. But the the problem is the tone, you can't read a tone in written word, you know, doesn't matter how many emojis you put in, you know. Well and and you can't correct tone. So like if you put it in caps because it's super important, I might put things underlined, right, that are super important and you might put things in bold that are super important and if someone sends me an email that's all caps I might think they're shouting at me but you might think it's just you telling me that that's the most important thing in the sentence. It’s just that I can't touch type. I just haven't noticed I am in caps. I can't we can't correct that. No. Whereas like if you, if we are talking and I say something and it's in the wrong tone or you take it the wrong way, it's, it's much easier to in the moment quickly adjust. And you can see the other person's reaction. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Particularly if you say something that the person doesn't jive with. Yeah and you go, hang on a second. Let's not move on from that. I didn't mean well, this is what I meant. You know, you can you can quickly adjust and I think and some of the, concerns I have about leadership and the challenges and going forward with leadership is that sometimes if you're from that kind of older school leadership, you might say something that's inappropriate now and not be aware you've done it or not know how to fix it, not be able to get a read on it, or I think the worst outcome is you do something that's that's not great. You say something a certain way, you offend someone, you exclude someone and then you kind of get embedded in your behavior like, well, actually, no, that's not my problem. That's their problem and that's leadership going completely, you know, poorly. So I think that inclusiveness that's much harder now I think if you're at a distance and if you've got that older style of leadership, I don't think it is easy. No and I think, you know, on top of that, you know, we're really encouraging diversity and equity and inclusion. Of course we are. But equally, how do you stay abreast of of even terminology and understand that you can't change your own story? I was running an inclusive leadership workshop, last year and, you know, one of the leaders put his hand up and he said, look, I can't change being a 55 year old white malehow do I start? you know, I said just be more curious. Just ask people more about their experience because, you know, this, this, this need to actually keep ourselves abreast of, you know, what does it mean to be inclusive, you know, understanding each other's stories, you know, whether people are ethnically different from us religiously different you know, sexuality different, you know, identity different. You know, we haven't walked in their shoes. So therefore, how do we make the time to actually get to know each other rather than making a blunder and saying something that then is taken as being offensive, and then we end up, you know, in this sort of situation where people are feeling marginalised. Well, it seems like the internet is not helping and exaggerating the extremities. No. So my feeling would be that the internet makes you believe that on the daily people, for example, being misgendered and that they are constantly freaking out about it every single day of every where they go, but there's just no evidence in our day to, like in my day to day life, that it's happening all the time, everywhere, and that there's not, let's say, grace being given to people on on wherever you're sitting on that ledger But the extremes of what gets blown up online. Yeah. So then that's what we see is oh this must be normal because this is what's happening. Yeah and I think what that creates is fear. You know, I think if, if you're fearful of actually saying something because it might be misinterpreted, then, you know, we're just creating this, this really, non-inclusive environment.So, you know, I, I think, I think there just needs to be that recognition that, you know, we're all different and therefore, how do we create some opportunities to just reconnect and bring this humanness back into how we operate? And the challenge when we're all on a computer and we're not creating space for that is I think we just become resources if we're not careful. So what do you mean by that? Well, we just sort of using each other. I need to get this done. This is my day's quota. This is what I need to get done. Can you help me or not? Yeah. So. So, you know, this this ability. Transactional. yeah and, you know, the rhythms that we used to have, you know, when I look back, certainly when I was working with Body Shop in London, you know, you had a breakfast room where there was breakfast available if you wanted it, you know, and we'd always have a tea break together and then you'd have an hour for lunch and then you'd have an afternoon tea break. And lo and behold, at 5:00 you went home and there was no way to reconnect with work. So you had this natural rhythm of recharging and replenishing and I'm not saying we're ever going to do away with technology, but we need to get some of those rituals back. I think, you know, rather than people working extraordinarily long hours, and not disconnecting, flexibility is great, but there also needs to be boundaries. And I think leaders need to set some of those boundaries if they see some of their, team, you know, working extraordinary hours and not putting those in place for themselves, which is that caring kind of side and yeah, you're right. When you had the physical, restrictions, you physically couldn't, so then that was the day done. Yeah. Which meant you didn't have the same flexibility as we have now. But, you know, certainly what I'm seeing is there's a lot more anxiety and overwhelm now than even six, seven years ago, because so much is unpredictable and so much is flexible that we’re needing to create some certainty for ourselves because our brain needs some level of certainty. Well and Covid was great from a technological advancement of business perspective, sorry I shouldn't have paused in all that sentence. that's going to be terrible. No, no. But so, you know, like working from home and, and, and all of that flexibility and it was really forced on a lot of businesses that had to then just do it and just get on with it. But it also created really bad natural habits of when to work and when not to work, and what the expectations were, because it was a pretty gnarly time and like thinking back to it, it was quite uncertain. All these things we're talking about uncertain, scary. Don't know if you're still going to have your job, don't know what you're going to get paid, don't know whether you're safe, you know, washing packets of pasta on the outside before you bring them, you know, like, really it was intense.And through that period, everyone who was able to work from home had the opportunity to then just sit and work and the feeling of needing to make sure you justify that you still should have a job meant that probably people worked in ways that they wouldn't ordinarily work from home and then those ways of working became ingrained is just normal. that it's just normal that if you're working from home, it means you could be working at 8 p.m. rather than if you're working from home, you're just you're having a business day. But at home, it probably also hasn't helped that we've got many kind of businesses that moved certain resources offsite, like out of the country working at different times. And yeah and so then people like, you know, the globalisation of the world means we're getting emails all the time at different times and I rememeber, I don't know whether before I was practicing Denise but a couple of the banks in particular, like we started getting loan notifications at like 4am and it was like “well, these guys are in early” But then it was, you know, after a day that we clocked on that they're not that committed to their job, bless them, that, that they're just overseas processing it and that's and that's the jump start to the day. It was quite handy too you know. Rather handy. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But are you seeing any of that at at a leadership level where, where it's pushing staff overseas or at different time zones together. Yeah, absolutely and I think there's many global companies who’ve been managing that for a long period of time and you know, there’s certainly is a yeah. For some organisation and movement to have, you know, call centers overseas. I think, I think the perhaps the bigger challenges is ensuring if you're a values driven organisation, how do we ensure that the values are consistent across all of our operating, I guess, countries and offices and respect the culture of the teams that we're bringing in to do the offshoring? So, you know, I think I think it's the conversations that need to be happening to really work out what is most important and how do we make sure that we are living our values, you know, whether it's in, wherever it is actually in the world that that we're, we're living the values of the organisation and how we treat them, and also respecting that they will have different ways of working. And we're going to need to be conscious of that and patient and patient with that. But, yes, when you start to think about it's not just your team, is it? I've been doing some work with some senior teams where actually as a senior leadership team, how do you operate as one team? You know, how do you have consistency in your behaviors? How do you ensure that you're consistent in your communication? You know what is it that matters most to you as a team in terms of how you’re seen? and, you know, also, you know, having the conversations around, you know, how do we reach consensus and what do we do with conflict as a senior leadership team and, you know, I think for many leaders, they've not perhaps thought about the number of teams that they belong to. It's not just the team that you're the leader of. You're part of a leadership team. yeah and then if you've got a global team. You're part of a global team. So then young people coming up through and being welcomed into those leadership teams. Yeah. That different generational kind of mindset. Yeah. That must be causing that must be causing problems or challenges. Well, I think there's also huge learning, isn't there? Because, you know, I reflect, you know, and when I've been working with younger leaders, you know, they're pushing back on some of what they’re seeing, you know, they've seen their parents or they've seen, you know, family members who've been putting in huge, huge hours. You know, working, you know, waiting until they retire and then coming in. Think that's not the life I want. You know, I want to work for something that has more meaning. You know, I want to be working with an organisation where my mental and emotional wellbeing is really cared for. You know, I want to be able to share my opinions and and I think that's brilliant because, you know, who's to say that they haven't got ideas that the future needs, but navigating that when you've had 30, 40 years of, you know, experience and this is what I know, and not putting that onto younger people's ideas. but I think there's also this, this need for this accountability, where, you know, I've been supporting some leaders who just don't even feel confident to put in, you know, expectations around being in the office for 2 or 3 days for fear of the reaction, the pushback. Yeah. Oh, what if I lose this person and they're really high performer, you know. So so there's this sort of dynamic of expectations and and how do you have those conversations to really understand, you know, what's most important to the young people coming in. which you wouldn't have had, you know, in years gone by, people would have just that's the job, do the, you know, a bit more, do as I'm told and I’ll work my way up. Whereas I think there is a confidence for some that, you know, I know what I'm worth and you know, what are you going to do for me and I think learning is really important for young people and you know it's not just the salary. It's okay. How are you going to help me develop and how do I belong. we have noticed some changes in staffing over the years and what when you're having an interview, what they're asking you as opposed to you asking them. So it is a shift. There's a shift in expectations, and there is a bit of a pushback and I can see that leaders would be feeling challenged by that and all of that creates that You know, sometimes in a leader, you need to be bold and it's very hard to be bold when you're not sure where that's going to land you and you know how you navigate all that uncertainty. So I think it's quite a challenging time. Well you can’t be bold if you, if you're leading from a place of fear. Yeah. Because the two are just they’re just in direct conflict. But you've had a team operating, overseas with Cambodia Charitable Trust stuff and you've managed to keep one culture, one vision for a number of years now. Yeah. So what's kind of what's something. Well, I think, one of the main things was to actually publish our goals and our operational guidelines, you know, in terms of making it very clear what your values were, what you would do to achieve the outcome and what you wouldn't because it's not success at all costs. It's, you can do it's do no harm and you can do a lot of harm and trying to achieve a good outcome, but I do sometimes it takes me back, when I think about the invisible or unconscious messaging that we are, carrying when we’re there for example, I was reminded about a day when we all turned up and it's a van full of very rumpled hot woman. We are not talking. HOT? or hot? Oh, no, no, no, Not HOT. Yeah. As in hot and you know, sometimes I think the van pulls up and the door goes to slide open and they expect a Lady Di type, you know, so and then I get out and my hair is misbehaving and I'm extremely hot and but what the young girls,

and boys are seeing is a group of women unaccompanied by men in positions of authority, as they see it, making decisions, traveling across the world, you know, being independent, self-sufficient. That's a message on its own and you're taking that to the heart of a very remote area where, you know, these children are absorbing it all and I think that there's sometimes in that situation, there's very much, messages that that you are actually not even conscious that you're passing on and that a leader, you know, in leadership, you’ve often got that it's people patterning themselves after you, there's that modeling concept, you know, that a leader is meant to be setting that pace out the front and being the model, I don't know how, sometimes you do it all. You become, you're a good leader, you're a good person. You're a good spouse and parent and, you know, soccer player and artist and all that. I mean, how do you kind of carry everything? Sometimes I think it's quite it's a lot. I think, you know, it's interesting isn't because I think everyone's a leader. so if you think about being a leader rather than doing leadership, then, you know, whether we're leading our family, whether we're leading, you know, community, initiatives, whether we're leading a project, you know, whether we're leading, you know, a sports team at times we have direct reports that we lead but this piece about what are the behaviors that I want to bring to life that people would describe in me and, you know, therefore, it's not about what I'm doing, it's how am I being. So if you can get clear which is your values, really, if I'm clear on what my values are and I demonstrate those where possible in all my interactions you know, that itself takes quite a lot of self-awareness and self-regulation, then you could argue that everyone's leading their own lives and therefore everyone is a leader, it's the responsibilities we sometimes pick up on that journey which means we're leading others. Yes. I'm terrible at always thinking in movie quotes, Jack Black has a great movie quote in a movie called The Holiday I think it's called, and he, and he says something about Kate Winslet's character that like, you're acting like the supporting actress in your own story, and that you should be a leading lady in your own story, which is that, I mean, that's that's the vibe of it, that you're the leading lady or the leading man in your in your story and you, it's incumbent upon you to maybe act like it. Yeah, well, I'll strive to be it. Yeah and I think that and I think that helps people because most of us, if we can control our behaviors and we might need to get feedback and we might need to look in the mirror a few times and recognise what's working, what's not. But, you know, we might need to learn techniques where we can press pause and be more mindful. But actually, I can work on myself if I care enough and I think that's what's having to happen. You know, leaders are having to really look at what is working and what's not working and what do I need to turn up and what do I need to turn down? So if I'm going to turn up being more curious and understanding someone else's perspective, I've got to turn down telling. and that sounds easy. But generally we've been rewarded for telling and having the answers. So, you know, I'm having to just be more flexible and more fluid. Self-reflection too you know, being open to learning and open to being challenged, not necessarily by someone else, but by yourself or by other opportunities to advance and adapt and I think actually the the values, I think one of the things that's worked really well with us, for us in Cambodia is that we actually really do live our values where, and it would be very easy to be like a large number of other NGOs which publish what they're going to do and say they’re this, that and the other but then they sit back and, you know, you have strip development where everybody wants to help somebody that's very easy to get to - it's on the main road and you end up with, you know, people who are being supported and they’re it's easy for the development practitioner to get there. They don't have to travel very far. It's not very hot or uncomfortable. I didn't read that manual or guideline it at the time. I chose extremely remote schools, but we actually really do live our values, you know, and I think as a team that's done us really well and our team in Cambodia have learned from it. And that's part of leaders are all through an organisation. They're not the boss and they're not the one that's necessarily called the leader. They’re the other team member that's setting an example or helping someone else and so, you know that leadership is sometimes, by necessity in an accident or some kind of emergency, or it's just where you've got an opportunity to portray a value that maybe someone's not necessarily living up to. And I think I agree it's all through, our life and organisations. Is that achieved, do you think by focusing on leadership or is it or, you know, in terms of like that incidental leadership, you're not necessarily arriving at an accident being like, oh, I should be the leader here. I should take charge. It's the surely a good leader would just do it.Yes. How do you get people to that point? when I, when I, whenever I look at leadership development or designing leadership for organisations or supporting them, it has to start with personal. I have to be able to look at myself so, you know, starting with what is it that drives my behaviors, what are my values? You know, understanding my story. you know, this ability to recognise that people who are different to me doesn't mean they're difficult. It means they're different. So, you know, how do I how do I understand who I am and get to know who they are better? and as part of that, you know, some ways of really looking at, you know, how do I build my resilience, how do I build my fluidity and flexibility, and there’s certain frameworks and tools that can help with that. But, you know, often just even that awareness of what is it that drives my behavior? Well, fundamentally, it's my thoughts, my feelings, my values, my beliefs, my motivators, my needs. So let's get clearer on that to start with and then we can start to think about, well, what does it mean to lead others and you know, what's going to enable them to be on that journey with you. So how do I ask better questions, you know, how do I build more coaching into how I lead? how do I, you know, get better at giving feedback? So, so, you know, I think it's I think it has to start with self. Otherwise it doesn't come across as sincere. you know, and to Denise's point, you know, I think if you've got people who can bring their values into where they work, who can buy into why they're doing what they're doing, because it's got a purpose more than just making money, then, you know, you’re 90% of the way there. Because, you know, certainly from my experience of working in the UK for a long period of time with Body Shop is where you've got a purpose that actually you can align to, most people want to give their best. Yeah. So, so therefore as a leader the conversations really are about helping people identify what's getting in the way. and in order to have those conversations we've got to go back to building the relationship and trust. Because if I trust you, if I feel safe to share what's getting in the way or where I need more support. then leadership isn't so hard. I mean, I think leadership gets hard where you're having to, you know, manage people because they're not engaged or they're not living the behaviors of the organisation or they haven't had the opportunity to be upskilled. so people, the generation coming through that seems to have more troubles with mental health, depression, anxiety, communication. This will be feeding into difficult workplaces? Is it something that businesses should be taking a leadership role on and helping out and people in that way? I mean, I and I don't think it's just young people. I think young people are definitely more vocal and it's it has become more apparent and I know having done a lot of reading, around that, I mean, there's so many factors that come into play, whether it's whether it's social media, whether it's comparing themselves at a much earlier age because they're feeding themselves all of this information about how successful people are, you know, whether it's nutrition, whether it's a feeling that actually we don't want to belong to this system, that we've seen our parents belong to. you know, I don't think there's any one reason why we're seeing it, but I think it's definitely, definitely much more spoken about, and therefore we can look at how do we support. yeah. But it's it's it's making it challenging. I mean, you know, I know a couple of years ago I was supporting one of the banks really with how do we have the conversations that we're needing to have now? Because if you're working with, you know, customers who've been victims of fraud or who are struggling to pay their mortgage, then the types of conversations you're having to have as a banker are involving people threatening self-harm and suicide, you know, and they've not been trained up necessarily when they started their careers to expect that to be part of the role, you know. So I think there's some great work being done. You know, even Saint John's doing the mental health first aid that we all need to be aware of. But I think it's so complex. I can remember as a young lawyer coming across something like that, and I'm sitting there thinking, you know, I'm 22. What life experience have I got to bring to solving this? What can I possibly say to you in this moment? That’s the right thing to say or not even that, not the wrong thing to say. Yeah and that there's a lot that's going on here and I'm not in a position I just don't want to get it wrong. But where did I get my training from to deal with that and that's pretty tough. I mean, I know as a, as a coach, you know, I did training with PREKURE last year on advanced certificate in mental health because I just need more tools in my tool box. I need I need to, as a coach, support people and lean into having the conversations that need to happen. It's not that I'm a clinical expert and you know, nor do I work in that space. But, you know, I think leaders at any age are having to deal with situations that they perhaps haven't come across before, either for themselves or in their families or with people that they're they're leading and the key thing is, how do we bring those conversations to the surface? be there and really listen and support people to get the professional help that they need. you know, and I think the more we can normalise, you know, how do we support somebody in that space but also recognise it's not our role, nor can we, know what's right for them? you know, you know, if I, if I look at, you know, I had these conversations with my, my father, he's 86 now and, you know, worked in insurance and corporates. And even when I was working with Price Waterhouse in the area of resilience, you know, his his sort of remark was well, what are you talking about? In my day, if you weren't on beta blockers, you weren’t working hard enough, you know, and and if you can't stand the heat, get out the kitchen and it was like “Yeah dad, that's exactly why I'm here.”That’s how it was. It was a boys, you know, you got to be tough. You got to do what needs to be done and, you know, if you're not on some form of medication for blood pressure, well you’re obviously not working hard enough, Wow, wow. How things have changed. Well, that badge of honor, right? Yeah, yeah, but whereas now it'd be like, bro. This is a problem, just stop for a second. Yeah. Well, now, you know, you know, some work I was doing some years ago was with a team that really needed to re-gel because one of the older partners, you know, had called somebody who was younger, a female, ‘dear’, and that was seen as incredibly paternal, sexist. And she made a formal complaint. Yes. So this delicate balance, of what’s appropriate, what’s not. And this is hard because something that I struggle with a little bit as how litigious my generation and the generation below me are with things on that. so, like when I said earlier that, you know, offering grace and that space, it feels like that's maybe not happening all the time. I agree, and I think, you know, I was talking at Diversity Works conference on empathy and Accountability earlier in the year. You know, and it's about having empathy for each other, you know, because I think, you know, I think the challenge is if if any of us are called out for anything, whether it's racism or sexism, or even just coming across as rude, our instant response is defense. and as soon as I'm in defense, I'm not in empathy I'm out to prove that I'm right. So, you know, there’s this responsibility of how do we how do we have grace to give each other feedback in a way that the person hears it, and it’s not seen as a character assassination? and you know, the challenge we have is when you look at something like a conference on diversity and equity and inclusion, you on the whole are preaching to the converted. Well and what's really interesting, I was at a conference in Melbourne last year and it was the focus was diversity, inclusion all that kind of jazz and there was one breakout session where it was all about, gender balance in the workplace and, and challenges facing young women and, and when they leave work to go and have a family and then coming back in and what they should look like and what it shouldn't look like and, and I asked the question of that we are currently in a workplace where we, we are very much female dominated in our work team and would it be they were talking about adverts and tailoring adverts and I just asked the question, would it be appropriate to tailor an advert to only be seeking a male candidate and you could feel the breath out of the room but we'd just had a 30 minute conversation about tailoring adverts to a woman. So it's quite a it's a conversation that's not necessarily a real the real conversation is not really being had. It's still a bit of a - It's delicate isn’t it - postured conversation. Because, you know, how do we bring it up to being a level playing field when it hasn't been because of historically, it has predominantly been men in leadership roles. but yeah, you know, I think it's the language we're using and how do we how do we bring it into who needs to be in the room to talk about the issues that we're all struggling with? And I think any alienation makes it difficult to have those conversations. and they're not easy conversations to have because everybody wants to feel that they're recruited on merit. But there's no doubt about it. I mean, there is sexism in the workplace. You know, women are, you know, a minority when you start to look and it hasn't changed much and I don't know whether the, you know, where the research sits on that, but, you know, having been aligned with global women and still, you know, supportive of all the work that they do, you know, there's still many women who are struggling in very male dominated environments, who do feel excluded, just because of unconscious bias. And, and do you think in New Zealand that's still being driven by gender, as in that gender is still a factor in why there's not women progressing into leadership roles? Or do you think that maybe the decisions - I think it has to be a contributing factor, but I think, you know, it's going to be interesting, isn't it, as as new generations come through as to, you know, what what is it that people regard as being successful or what does success actually mean? that definitionWhereas I think there's been this very, you know, certainly when I was working in a professional services firm, you know, there was almost this expectation that if you if if you're at this level, then your next step must be that you want to become a partner. Well, no actually, not necessarily. So, you know, it's sometimes it takes more courage to say, this isn't what I want, but I think I think the thing with equity is does everybody have a fair go should they wish to take that role. And if you've got, you know, five men and one women on the recruitment panel and they all work in the organisation, that's going to take a a very self-aware leadership team to recognise where might our biases be, be coming in. But, you know, I think it's complex. I think there's many, many different factors that come in and, you know, I'm I'm a big advocate of the conversation needs to happen between as many diverse people as possible. You know, there's lots of leadership programs for women and, you know, often men are asking me, why haven't we got a leadership program and say, well, why aren't you setting one up if you feel there's a need? But generally there isn't as much of a need, and because they're in the majority, okay. Otherwise they would be yeah. So I think I think it's just an interesting conversation and you know, I know there's a lot of work going on around that, but, I think if, if, if these issues at least are raised and people can look at, well, what's supporting, what's getting in the way, you know, there is a lot of work going on in that space. And some of it may be that actually, you know, you put your head above the ceiling and you don't like what you see there. So I'm making a choice not to. Yeah and because potentially I mean, that would be that would not be necessarily the explanation, but a logical extension would be that women are smart enough to when they get to that level and see what, what they need to do to singularly advance in that career to get to that station. Actually, I'd rather have friends and family and a life and all the other balanced things. Or open my own. I mean, there’s a lot of women entrepreneurs, you know, in New Zealand. Yeah, yeah, yeah and then, you know, actually create the culture they want from the bottom up rather than trying to change it top down. Yes. Yes. If there's more encouragement in helping, you know, young women. Yeah. Into opening your own. And arguably cheers, by the way, I feel like I've been staring at this wine but unable to start drinking it. Arguably, there's kind of never been a time in history where the physical barriers for starting a business are as low as what they currently are. Yeah. That's true. You know, you don't need bricks and mortar necessarily to start up a distribution business.And because you can just leverage everyone else's. Yeah and you can do it all through technology. Yeah. It's interesting. You know, I suppose working for myself and using social media to raise my profile and share what I'm doing is pretty frenetic out there because everybody's now online, very noisy, very noisy, and everyone's needing to find that little niche in their space. And, you know, it gives me that real experience of what it must be like for, for our young people when that's been what they've grown up with, you know, and I, I can think about it in terms of my two young adult children, you know, when, when you grow up from the era that I'm from and, you know, probably Denise and I are similar, you know, you were very influenced by your family and your direct community and your friendship group, and now you're influenced by global news, most of which is perhaps fake, you know, and very depressing. Yeah, yeah. You know, I think I think, you know, again, how do we how do we sort of try and appreciate that impact that, that has. But also how do we as leaders also, you know, be really clear on who we are, what we stand for, what our non-negotiables are in terms of our values, but also, you know, be more fluid and more flexible and more connected to the people that we lead to understand their journey and that, you know, and lots of leaders would say, well, that's not my role as the leader then, you know, I think that question, perhaps, well what is your role? needs to be asked and yeah, that comes back also to understanding your, your personal strengths and weaknesses and yeah, where you, you know, which kind of roles suit you and how other people are made differently and. Absolutely just I mean, I've been running a it's a five session over four month leadership program for Social Inc in Tauranga And, you know, at least one of the participants this morning we were doing the sort of final session and, you know, sharing, you know, she's come to the realisation that she's so passionate about what she's doing, but she doesn't want to be a people leader. It's not you know, she finds it really stressful. She's recognised it's not her strength and she can now let go of that and focus on where she's really able to make things different. So I don't think it's for everybody. And a good team surely must have a balance of that, you know. Yeah. We we did try that in the firm a while back, we had someone come and we did this kind of, I don't know whether you’d call it, a personality test. And oddly enough, we could identify each other on that. There were 11 here were, there were two people that there was one person there that we were all like, that's you. Yeah, yeah, you can see it once somebody describes these different traits you’re like. I know who that is. Yeah, but it's that I think one of the challenges that we have is we need to be able to forgive transgressions. You know, if somebody makes a mistake, it's not only taking responsibility where you've made a mistake and being prepared to apologise or to respond appropriately, but having forgiveness when somebody else, you know, steps on your toes and where I've seen people recently having real challenges in a work environment, I've talked to them about, you know, thinking about, well, hang on, you know, have you had, you know, any role in this? Take responsibility for what you've done, but also be prepared to forgive and acknowledge, you know, their journey and and I think that has really helped created a space for forgiveness and acceptance, you because, you know, so often people are projecting this worry into areas that they have no control or influence over. I mean, even even supporting one of the organisations down in, in Wellington, you know, one of the government organisations, you know, it's it's how do you really focus on shorter term goals, you know, so you're not going to have clarity perhaps for two weeks. So what are the teams you really need to focus on for the next two weeks until you're clearer. So I think some of what's needed when we're navigating all of this unpredictability is set direction but also be setting smaller milestones. That gives us focus and not fighting something that we can't change you know because otherwise we waste so much energy. I can remember, coming up to the whole Covid closures and things were really trying to stay ahead of the curve and not wait for someone else to make decisions about how we're going to respond to this as a business. And we’d come up with a policy right from now on, we're going to do it this way and this way and this way, pretty much five minutes later, something else had happened. Right? Well, actually, we're now going to do it this way and yeah, it was just so challenging. But you know, that I'm just reflecting on, you know, the climate change, you know, debates that are going on and these and the wars and conflict and things like that, you know, to sometimes you kind of wonder whether you're rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic when you're, you know, when you're not able to control all of this stuff, you know, these big picture things happening as well. Absolutely and that's tough. You know, I think that's really challenging, particularly for younger people, where they're not only being asked to fit within the system of trying to work out where they are and, you know, in their jobs and their careers and leadership and the rest of it, but then there's this kind of like elephant in the room. Yes. Yeah. The world's, you know. Yeah, the world's burning. So, you know, kids can access it. Yeah. You know, like I remember when I was like 8 or 9 and the trade centers got hit and I remember it

because we, we had it on at school on the radio, but then realistically, that it was that like, I think we got sent home that day maybe. But then we didn't have it on the news for the next 3 or 4 months. We didn't have online, so I couldn't just go online and watch the videos and I couldn't watch then people talking about it and all this and that. Yeah and that's now where we're is that, you know, as tragedies are happening, we can get content before it's vetted, before we even know what it is. We can see kind of like the drones in the Ukraine and so we're watching it. Yeah. Yeah. To me it’s like, it's, you know, Gaza is, you know, it's like we're watching the Holocaust. Yeah and we're all just going I don't even know if this video is real. Yeah. You know it's, it's it's a very scary notion that we don't necessarily know what content is real and what content is manipulated. And who's released and why have they released it and that's quite challenging and that's us as adults. Yeah. You know, and then you've put that on people in their teens and into even their 20s having to form opinions about things that really we have no idea about. Yeah. I mean, I find that challenging, even at my advanced age, you know, where I've got a certain, I assume, certain things of people that they're going to look me in the eye and tell me the truth. You know, I could never get away with it with my mum not looking her in the eye if I was trying to tell a fib, but, you know, sometimes I've been in a situation now where I'm like, I actually just can't read you. I don't know whether this is really what it's, you know, and it's very discomforting to not be able to get a read on something anymore. And that's just on very small scale. But if you're getting it all the time on the internet and you know any belief you have, you can find someone who'll validate it. I think that's what's scary as well and the internet is a tool that you can type that question in. Yeah and if you say, explain to me how the Sky City is an inside job and then someone will have posted something somewhere and so then you so your question has reaffirmed your answer, and you don't even realise that you have asked a question that has generated the answer you wanted. Yeah. I think also if you bring it back to leadership Oh my God, what a terrible job we're doing of it globally. Wow. I mean the great democracies. I think communism's looking rather flash right now. Like China's lead billions of people out of abject poverty and we used to hold America up as being, you know the democracy and the model and we're now looking at going what is going on. Yeah. Yeah. Well I have said to a number of people that, you know, the judiciary and the judicial system in the states at the moment, it's very scary when you have judges that are Partisan. Absolutely and that it's normal that a journalist saying blah, blah, blah, judge is probably going to rule this way because they're Republican. Yeah, yeah. Oh that's like that's at the end of the judiciary. That's just horrible and we don't see that and I think, you know, if we were to come back to leadership again and teams that are across different countries, different cultures, we have kind of like, expectations of some cultures, you know, that they're going to behave differently and, you know, punctuality and, you know, communication and emotive-ness and all these things, you know, when they’re forms of communication. And if you've got international or multinational teams, you're just thinking, how do you handle some of that? You know, something that's acceptable in one culture is totally offensive in another, and if you're trying to be in that senior leadership kind of role, I just think, wow, you know, you'd have to just I don't know. Do you leave your expectations at the door or try to I mean, how do you shed that? Well, I mean, I always say, if you're not sure, ask, you know, so I think there is this, this self responsibility of education and what is it I need to understand and reaching out to people who have worked in that culture, not going in with this sort of arrogance I think sometimes we're used to, you know, in terms of, you know, even facilitating in, in Asia Pacific, you know, when you someone, have you got a question?Well, you're not going to get a question because they don't necessarily question if you're the deemed authority. So, you know, inviting people in, being much more aware of even on virtual calls that people would need to be personally invited to share and just, you know, anyone want to share anything? So yes, it is this sort of how, how agile can I be, which does make it more complex because we generally like to communicate in a way that we like to communicate. I did find that a challenge once when I was moderating a conversation overseas, when there's a big group of people in the room and pretty much expected we were going to get stuck at a few different nationalities, you could almost pick the nationality and judge how long the introduction was going to end and that was a very different, and you had to really make sure you involve them rather than it just passed over. It's really, really challenging. but such a learning if you can. but are there questions that you shouldn't ask, do you think when you're doing that exploratory kind of trying to see whether your cultural position is compatible with a team member or colleagues? I think it's just keeping them open. You know, what would be useful for me to understand? you know, you know, what is respect, look and feel like in your culture? If you're not sure. I mean, people don't have to answer a question. So I think as long as your intent and people are clear that your intent is to make this the most meaningful session and to make sure that we trust each other and work together. What is it I need to understand? you know, it's a little bit like, as a facilitator, you know, I’d open with what, what questions have you got of me, you know, after the introduction, because some people need more credibility or more understanding of why you are running a session and I think, you know, I think, you know, questions are really powerful. it's just ensuring that you're clear as to why you're asking the question. So the intent, I mean, and I agree, I think you've hit the nail on the head that the intention is so important. Yeah. You know, and I think even when even running, coaching training, people say, when does coaching become when does questioning become prying? I said, well, when the agenda is on your terms, if you're asking a question because you want to know for something that's going to benefit you but has no benefit to the other person then that's probably prying. Which is interesting because we deal with this daily, we are, and like literally today I had a meeting with a with a prospective client and it's quite intense questions. Yeah. That we jumped to and a couple of times I found myself just checking in with them. Yeah. Hey, I know this is we're getting into stuff. Can we carry on? Because. Because it gets very personal and you don't want them to feel like you're just interested because everyone else in their life is like and then what did blah blah say? I can't believe he said that. But why did he say that? You know, and do you think it's because of his girlfriend? And but when we ask those questions we're asking professionally, yeah, we're going okay, I'm trying to assess risk. I'm trying to assess how this fits together. It's not like a gossip fest but it's quite easy for it to kind of feel like it. I mean, I know, you know, you know, when you put wills together, the questions are hard, aren't they? Well, what happens if you both die, it's like, yeah, why don't you shut up? Yeah, actually, you have to have the confidence to sometimes go, you know, there's often a situation where you’ll just get a sense that there's a door that needs to just be pushed against. And, you know, I've had a, yeah, it's it takes courage, does take courage. But what concerns me a little bit and hearing, you know, some of what you've been saying, Nicky, is that I know that's how I should behave. But often I'm like, you know, I'm task driven. I've got to get to what I need to get to. I've got other things happening this, that and if I'm not able to take the time to be more open and listen and learn, it's probably because I've got 15 other things I meant to have done and you're going to not necessarily stuff it up, but you're going to have to take shortcuts. Yeah and that's the pressure that some of our leaders are under, you know, they’re I need to learn more about you and understand you. But actually, I need to get you now to do this. You know, I need this done right this second. I need you to do it. Yeah and we can grow tomorrow. Yeah. I need you do it how I’ve said you’re going to do it. Yeah and I think that's a challenge for, for majority of leaders. Yeah. Yeah and I think there's always that balance between you know getting stuff done, holding people accountable and investing. Yeah. Yeah and and you know I think that's that's what keeps me in business. You know, how do we have a session where we actually we can fast track really getting to know each other and having the conversations that matter. But, you know, again, if you can build that sense that people can know you and you can be more explicit around “I’ve just got a lot on.” You know, “apologies if I'm not there for you today.” You know, be transparent, you know, and and then think about what how do we schedule how do we schedule some of this time together or even reflective time. Yeah. Because with all this flexible working and working from home, I think people are finding less time to reflect, you know, to plan, to take breaks. Yeah. because while you’re busy and it’s you need this done, you need this done, they've got things happening in their life which are uncomfortable, challenging, upsetting and you're both coming to table with huge bags of unspoken issues, and you're trying to achieve something there and then that it's, you know, trying to deal with things when my dad's not well, you know, and that's, yeah, it's whatever it is, that's going on at the time. I do recall when we were going to Cambodia in the very beginning and having to build a team, the importance of being in the same van and the thing that moved us along the most was shared humor, which is challenging when you’ve got two languages. But once you can tell a joke at the right pace for the translator, so everyone laughs at the same time, you just it's a breakthrough. That's very yeah, cool. But we used to also tend to have a theme crop up whether it was accountability or, responsibility. Is it your is this your rat or is it their rat? Yeah. You know, and I think we, we would end up by default having recurring issues coming up on that trip where you would develop this theme further and you could see everybody starting to understand what you mean by accountability, whose responsibility is it or whatever it was. I think, you know, I think that's, often you need to kind of work away on one thing at a time until you get some shared understanding. Yeah. So, yeah, not sure if it's relevant, The shared, the shared experience, you know, the team going through it together is then it's why inside it's my good friends have inside jokes. Yeah. Yeah. Because you've like shared your lives together and then something happens and then you've got like a shortcut to that that relationship. Touchpoint. and that's the importance of that in that context was not to ride in thinking we had all the answers because we sure didn’t, still don't, but to try to find our way together and I think that’s bought our, the two different cultures together and we kind of laugh that we're an international family, which is possibly taking a bit far. But but in reality, you know, we're working together and the main thing is we have a shared goal and everybody feels that they’re contributing to something bigger than themselves, which is really what you're looking for in an organisation.Yeah. If you got a strong purpose that you can align to, and you're able to bring in your strengths and feel that you belong, and you feel cared for, then, you know, I think people do bring in their best. what do you reckon is going to be the biggest change in the next ten years? Is it going to be systems? Is it technology? Is it people? Work environments? Yeah, that's a really good question. I mean, AI is obviously going to have an impact. That's what came to my mind. And what impact, I'm not sure. but you know, I think technology is moving at such a pace it's going to be interesting as to what roles you know, we still need to really. I mean, I think, I think where so it's as far as I understand around AI they, they haven't got the capacity to really connect at that human level yet. So I think, you know, I think certainly even from a coaching perspective, I was on a podcast with David Clutterbuck, a few weeks back, and he was talking about the evolution of coaching. And he said, look, for any of you who, who coach just using a formula, you know, and not using intuition and not bringing your own life and wisdom and into your coaching, you know, you need to evolve because we can do that online. You can somebody can take you through the grow model and it used to be a series of slides. In five years it'll be a dude who will seem like a dude, quack like a dude. But it'll AI just delivering that formula. Yeah. So I think it is about how do we how do we get more in touch with our humanness and how do we create more connection and, you know, so yeah, I think that's going to come in, I don't really have a crystal ball as to what the workplace will look like. Oh, that’s a shame. You know, it's going to be interesting whether it moves. I mean, I think I think needs to slow down a little bit and I think that's a franticness in most workplaces I'm noticing that's not helping people's mental health. is that going to change though, or are we going to learn to do things faster? Well, I think, here's my two cents on that. Is that out of Covid I remember there being this massive feeling of, oh my gosh, actually business is pretty good for most of us. Business was pretty. It was good. Lots of EXPATS come back, lots of things going on. Property still, went up make hay while the sun shines. We gotta, we gotta to we got to collect all this work and we've got to get it done. And since then it hasn't gone down. Not for the legal industry. So then we've been in this like fight or flight mindset of make hay while the sun shines. Now for what's that four years okay and I don't know whether we've come off it and that's not the first of those cycles. No, no, Tauranga's gone through huge development cycles and you're, you're constantly trying to keep up with the tide. But I think I don't know if we're going to slow down. I know that we should, but will we? I think I think I mean, the other thing that I think is probably a concern and this is just based on my personal experience, is when you look at how unaffordable housing is, how relatively low our wages are, You know, if I was a young person, I'd be off to Australia. Yeah. Because, you know, my daughter's over there and what she earns even working, you know, in, in a sort of behavioral support place, is probably at least a third more than she can earn here. Now, we're going to edit you out, don't you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Before our staff all disappear. And having an Australian wife, this was you know, we had serious conversations about this and had to face, you know, face what we would and wouldn't do. And. Yeah. Yeah and it's, it's certainly there's an attraction over there. Yeah and I've got an Australian son in law and I'm thinking where are my grandchildren going to end up, you know. Yeah. But then it's not all rosy I think. Yes, you’ve got Australians. That's right. Yeah. Yeah I mean I yeah I mean it's but I think for young people where they’re feeling that they're working really hard and they're still not getting ahead. Yeah. You know and it's fine if you're in you know an organisation financial services or probably you know legal but you know for those who are doing minimum wage and I think minimum wage is a real issue. And the whole living wage. This. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. There's a lot that New Zealand I think needs to look at. We shouldn't get into politics but Yeah. Well but it's, but it's not really politics because it's not something that is either left or right. No, it's because both governments have presented with issues with how they have attempted to tackle the problems that haven't solved the problems. So clearly it's something that needs bipartisan support, because otherwise we just bounce. Yes, every 6 or 9 years and we see exactly what we're seeing now, which is a rolling back of a whole bunch of things and and no infrastructure. Yeah and if it flows red the other way, next election or the election after then we'll see the exact same change in tides. it's it's a bigger problem than between election cycles. It's something that actually we as a team have to decide, are we going to are we going to fix it and stop pretending that you can get ahead on minimum wage as an adult in New Zealand and some say something that we take responsibility for in our own lives. You know, we've got to walk the talk and we've got to make sure that who we employ and whatever services we engage, we treat them with respect. And yeah, I don't I don't know how is consumers really I'm not sure how much influence we have, but we must have some. Yeah. I think we have a huge amount. You know, if I look at, you know, retail, I mean, the whole face of retail is changing, isn't it? You know, I look at you look at what happened to Body Shop in the UK, you know, where it's half the stores have been closed down and, really, it's been a huge, huge, it's been taken over by a private equity company. So, you know, Body Shop is as it was, has gone and, you know, I think a lot of retailers are, moving to an online model or just having a, a sort of standalone store that people can use as a, as a sort of model store. When I was reading something in America, you know, that, you know, people aren't going to malls because malls are shutting down. It's too, too expensive. They're all shopping online. So so again, you're losing that community focus of where people used to meet and yeah. So you know, this, this, this sort of isolation and, you know, I think there's potentially some risks around community - lack of, loneliness, there’s huge loneliness issues and yeah, you know, it doesn't take far to find somebody that's, you know, that's lonely. And I think, how do we solve that? It wouldn't be hard, you know, to try to embrace somebody or include somebody that's a bit lonely. But I just don't know how you do that. And interesting, you know, take you back to Covid. I mean, we were in Auckland at that point, but, you know, we used to have street, you know, two meters apart but I think there was great because we were all in a crisis. Yeah. I think people's values really came to the fore and we were all looking out for each other and even in, in, even in the workplace, there was a lot of check in on health and wellness. We did that regularly, leniency around work. Yeah and it's almost like we've stuck with some of that, but we haven't kept that piece I don't think there's as much emphasis. Well, there's a lot of romanticising about like, oh my gosh, we've changed our ways and this is going to be so good moving forward. We're all going to make our own bread for ever and then as soon as everythingAnd so then I don't know whether it's just happening at the same time that we're kind of feeling like we're stepping away from a lot of groups and, and because we're just focusing on our family and I think that's a beautiful thing to ask ourselves, isn't it? You know, because there's a saying that I really like it. Sometimes we hold onto an old version of ourselves. And I thought, I think, that's very cool. You've changed, bro. Is how, is how we would describe that. Yeah. As, as young men. You used to be cool before you had X girlfriend or before you had baby, or before you had job or whatever it was before you played golf. Or alternatively, you continue to try to be that person and really you needed to have you know, taken, get into long pants. I saw an amazing chap He did a talk on this and he was like, if you're 35 and a father and you're still behaving like a 21 year old, yeah, you're the problem. Yeah, yeah. Like not like not your mate saying you've changed. Yeah. You should have changed.you needed to have you know, taken, get into long pants. I saw an amazing chap He did a talk on this and he was like, if you're 35 and a father and you're still behaving like a 21 year old, yeah, you're the problem. Yeah, yeah. Like not like not your mate saying you've changed. Yeah. You should have changed. Yeah, yeah and of course, those who haven't changed want you to change back to how you were because it validates them. Yeah. Yeah and so yeah. Yeah sometimes I think you know it's good to, to just sort of do a bit of a, inner selfie, you know, am I happy with who I am and, who I’m spending time with. It's not just your age of children. Yeah that's the journey now right? I've got aging parents. I've got kids that, you know, I still want to be engaged with and assist them where I can and then I've got grandchildren, and so I can get through months without having any time for friends. Yeah. I'm just like, it’s that family web. Yeah and what a blessing. It is a great thing. And to have the entire mafia in Tauranga sometimes we still miss the freedom of how it was when we were younger. Yeah. Yeah. It's okay isn't it. It's. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Exactly. It's okay to sort of do that little bit of Yeah. But for the Mafia comment. I think that's a really nice place to leave it. Thank you for watching or listening, and I hope you've taken something away from this conversation about leadership and the challenges facing the next generation of leaders. It's my pleasure to bring you these conversations, and if you've enjoyed what you've heard or seen, hit that like button, subscribe to our channel so that you can stay up to date with future videos and if you've got a comment to share, then pop them in the comments box. As I say, it's a pleasure bringing you these videos, and remember at LOA Law, we are good lawyers for good people.

‍